But I still don’t think you get it, RISC-V is a ISA, just an ISA. Well you can see some of that discussed in the FAQ, and you can get into the weeds by looking at the implementer’s guide. So to summarize, there is binary compatibility so long as bitness and ISA subsets match, but that doesn’t doesn’t mean that you can just move from one CPU to another and assume that IO and the like all work the same. I’m sure someone will find a use. You need to seperate the meta issues from business decisions from implementation. I think this really needs a technical vision articulating examining what is and isn’t possible then a deeper look at the gotchas and whether vendors will cooperate or not, and the use and abuse of patents and copyright to stop an advance in this area. Part of the difficulty in evaluating Micro Magic's claim for its new CPU lies in figuring out just what a CoreMark is and how many of them are needed to make a fast CPU. At an abstract level I don’t really care whether transcoding is done via hardware or software (ditto support for VMs and hooks or subsystem mechanisms for different OS to run at the same time). The chart below compares Videocard value (performance / price) using the lowest price from our affiliates. You must login or create an account to comment. New RISC-V CPU claims recordbreaking performance per watt Micro Magic's new CPU offers decent performance with record-breaking efficiency. I’m a bit sceptical of RISC-V as it seems more of an American thing and wonder if pushing RISC-V is less about technical and equity issues and more about who ultimately controls and influences the CPU platform. As a FOSS user, what I want most is a very consistent and reliable boot strapping process where the owner is in control with no proprietary dependencies. PassMark Software has delved into the thousands of benchmark results that PerformanceTest users have posted to its web site and produced nineteen Intel vs AMD CPU charts to help compare the relative speeds of the different processors. RISC-V could implement an x86 compatibility mode like apple, but for users like myself though, I don’t really see much benefit in emulating x86 code and I suspect most people who find RISC-V appealing aren’t that interested in emulating x86 either. With that said, it's worth pointing out that—if we take Micro Magic's numbers for granted—they're already beating the performance of some solid mobile phone CPUs. I expect government regulators would have an eye on this too if public discussion got enough traction. o New Willow Cove CPU core with significant frequency uplift leveraging 10nm SuperFin technology advancements. Some scepticism and expertise is required and not everyone has the training or time or inclination for this. . We first noticed Micro Magic’s claims earlier this week, when EE Times reported on the company’s new prototype CPU, which appears to be the fastest RISC-V CPU in the world. I think we’re talking at cross purposes or have different goals or priorities in mind. Later the same week, Micro Magic announced the same CPU could produce over 8,000 CoreMarks at 3GHz while consuming only 69mW of power. Does anyone have any ideas what? With their projections for the Phoenix ARM core, Nuvia is claiming a performance per Watt advantage over the current core offerings from Apple, Qualcomm, Intel, and AMD. I’d really like to see RISC become the platform of choice for FOSS, but we’ve got a bit of a catch-22: we need manufacturers to make these products viable, yet all too often when they do it comes will strings attached, proprietary blobs, and owner restrictions. Oops. At 4.25GHz, the Micro Magic can accomplish the same workload as the Ryzen 4700U with less than one-third the power required. Here is the thing, you keep asking low level questions (or ones that can only be answered in a low level way because of what RISC-V actually is), and then get seemingly upset when we answer that way. ... meshes, and infinity fabric) impact this measure of per-core performance… For the Apple, I only had access to whole-system power draw, so I subtracted the "desktop idle" power draw from the "under test" power draw. I don't have access to anything nearly as fine-grained as turbostat for the Apple M1, so for that platform I took whole-system power draw at the wall and just plain subtracted the reading at desktop idle from the sustained reading while under test. You would be better served by talking in a less technical way, and in one that emphasizes clarity. AMD claims that in comparison to Intel’s Core i7-1065G7 processor, the Ryzen Mobile 4000 Series will be able to deliver up to a 30% increase in graphics performance. Anyways if you want to end the discussion here that’s ok! (In some cases CPU was actually faster than the hardware renderer due to the technology of the time. with 103 posters participating, including story author. All we needed to do here was clone its GitHub repository, then issue a make command—optionally, with arguments XCFLAGS="-DMULTITHREAD=8 -DUSE_FORK=1" if we want to test on multiple threads/cores at once. They probably learned a lot from microsoft’s x86 emulation and decided to go with hardware assistance. Interesting once the cost target was reached in printed SolarPV it hasn’t supplanted traditional silicon as first thought, but it’s become supplemental. There are completely open and inspectable implementations of RISC-V that I think satisfy what you want, but at it’s core RISC-V is intended to spur innovation, research, implementations, etc by providing a common, IP-Free ISA. I always thought OpenGL got a lot of things right. Given time (and this is still very new) you probably will see chip manufacturers who are as open as they can possibly be, hell we may see completely open fabs at some point. What you are talking about is implementation… I think. The numbers support that and do show ARM is more efficient in doing the tasks at hand, in this case Geekbench 5. I’m quite confused that this is your response to me. The material on this site may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, cached or otherwise used, except with the prior written permission of Condé Nast. Ars may earn compensation on sales from links on this site. No idea and the marketing puff doesn’t say. A lot was identical differing only in implementation where implementations certified for industrial use took less shortcuts and were pixel accurate, and retail implementations were a bit quick and dirty in places and sacrificed accuracy for performance reasons. CNMN Collection At 3GHz, that figure plummets to less than one-eighth the power required. It may be RISC-V benefits from some extentions to facilitate co-existance of OS and portability. Two charts below (currently on-sale and all-time value) displays the top Videocards in terms of value. So I can see this chip stuff in the lower power market becoming very dominant, provided the applications can keep the processors cool. I was just adding my own opinion. Can they scale to more demanding uses? (It's worth noting that we had no way to run CoreMark on the M1's slower, less battery-hungry Icestorm cores only.). Unsurprisingly, both parts produced more performance per watt when exercised with one work thread for each available CPU thread. The lesson of Apple’s M1 is that you don’t need new instructions (to the best of our knowlege there are no additional instructions in the M1 for that), but a different Mode to implement the intel consistency model so the code would execute more like an x64 processor. I gave my Ryzen and Apple processors the benefit of every possible doubt when generating the above charts—I used core power (not total package power) on the Ryzen 4700U and ran tests with the Gnome3 desktop shut down. The 2020 MacBook Air is also powered by Apple's new M1 processor which are Arm-based CPUs. For a broader context there are software versus fastpath issues where a given OpenGL function may have been fully or only partially implemented in typically faster graphics card hardware . This is all they don’t tell you. This is why I asked you to define what you meant, and ended up making a guess. - Dec 4, 2020 11:15 am UTC. “World’s best CPU performance per watt”: Testing conducted by Apple in October 2020 using preproduction 13-inch MacBook Pro systems with Apple M1 chip and 16GB of RAM. I’m more concerned about the abstract meta stuff like interoperability versus lock-in than what happens at the FAB end of the problem. Lobbyists and vested interests with deep pockets and now too many politicians spend more time leaning on marketing than creating good legal frameworks and policy based on the public interest. 232. 10 Best SSDs you can buy today Gadget Flow. What is performance per watt? The world’s fastest CPU core in low-power silicon; The best CPU performance per watt of any computer chip ; The world’s fastest integrated graphics in a personal computer; Breakthrough machine learning performance with the Apple Neural Engine; The M1 chip is available in the new MacBook Air, 13-inch MacBook Pro, and Mac mini. This may well be the same tactic for the processors, you can imagine an array of these devices working at low bandwidth/demand feeding a centralised conventional chip with heavily curated data, in effect doing all the housekeeping which could massively improve performance and efficiency. But is ... What is performance per watt? I’m a bit sceptical of RISC-V as it seems more of an American thing, Oh china is biting pretty hard on RISC-V as well. They add one or more layers of printed SolarPV to conventional PV to boost performance. For the vast majority of use cases there’s no real need to step away from. I’m very curious about what would happen if we started including those $1 solar powered calculators in these performance per watt comparisons. It’s the same with politics. Not only does the new design appear to perform well while massively breaking efficiency records, it's doing so with a far more ideologically open design than its competitors. On the Ryzen-powered Linux system, I used the utility turbostat to get both Core and Package power readings while the tests were running. It’s surprisingly difficult to convince people to detach themselves from preconceived opinions and look at the data sometimes. Switzerland recently had its own scandal when it turned out one Swiss supplier of backdoored security products was owned by US and German intelligence. Jim Salter - Dec 4, 2020 11:15 am UTC. At roughly a quarter the performance of world-leading x86 and ARM mobile processors, the Micro Magic CPU doesn't sound like much yet. The Mac mini (M1, 2020) is the first desktop Mac to feature Apple’s very own M1 chip. An open and competitive architecture won’t happen unless there is this involvement. The politics is a bit of an issue I agree although the law is a lot clearer so easily subject to technical discussion and there is a fair degree of case law and science to lean on. Sorry but I don’t get what you are saying. Still, this is an exciting development. The Embedded Microprocessor Benchmark Consortium (EMBC) is a group with wide industry representation: Intel, Texas Instruments, ARM, Realtek, and Nokia are a few of its more notable and easily recognizable members. CPU Benchmark Hierarchy 2020: Intel and AMD Processors Ranked. Jim Salter Andy Huang 200mW. Don’t beat yourself up, the M1 did well in some benchmarks and poorly in others. This is the point where I think engineers need other people who understand the governance and consumer rights issues to step in and add support otherwise engineers are always going to be at the mercy of the boss class and financiers. ... promising that the M1 will offer the world's best CPU performance per watt. You say that you don’t care about implementation, which is fair enough given that many users don’t care either. However somebody obviously does have to care about this stuff and many of us here on osnews do find these things important. Micro Magic's new CPU prototype is seen here running on an Odroid board. Performance per watt refers to the ratio of peak CPU performance to average power consumed using select industry standard benchmarks. At the maximally power-efficient 3GHz clockrate, the Micro Magic CPU scores about one-fourth the CoreMarks of either the Ryzen 4700u or Apple M1. I benchmarked it against the PineBook Pro. The RISC-V ISA—unlike x86, ARM, and even MIPS—is open and provided under royalty-free licenses. The Snapdragon 888 also offers more energy efficient than the Snapdragon 865, with a 25% improvement in the CPU's performance-per-watt and 20% more … All rights reserved. I agree we are unlikely to see any movement on this although there are plenty of technical people who are interested. Itani - December 4, 2020. 0. Later the same week, Micro Magic announced the same CPU could produce over 8,000 CoreMarks at 3GHz while consuming only 69mW of power. ... impressive performance-per-watt metrics. So calling conventions, etc aren’t defined. This means that a RISC-V CPU can be anything from a microcontroller to a server grade CPU, and doesn’t have to implement the modules it doesn’t need. As you said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The Linux operating system already supports RISC-V architecture—so for headless or near-headless controllers that simply need to deliver decent performance paired with extreme power efficiency, Micro Magic's new CPU is likely most of the way there. I do agree with your comments on why the Chinese are using RISC-V and other CPUs and what they are used for. Core performance with Nuvia’s Phoenix. I’ve been trying for so long to encourage everyone to be patient and form their opinions based on data rather than marketing claims. This specifically avoids most effects of system differences in memory, I/O, and so forth. Micro Magic adviser Andy Huang claimed the CPU could produce 13,000 CoreMarks (more on that later) at 5GHz and 1.1V while also putting out 11,000 CoreMarks at 4.25GHz—the latter all while consuming only 200mW. Exactly! We first noticed Micro Magic's claims earlier this week, when EE Times reported on the company's new prototype CPU, which appears to be the fastest RISC-V CPU in the world. However it provides implementors a common, modular, and extensible ISA that is unencumbered by patents or other IP concerns. This rate is typically measured by performance on the LINPACK benchmark when trying to compare between computing systems: an example using this is the Green500 list of supercomputers. There was a universal core you could depend on with everything else being an extention. Better yet, the company itself isn't an unknown. I think you have to just look at the spec or trust me when I say the core spec defines a thoroughly modern CPU with feature sets on par with any modern CPU, I also think you need to define what you mean by transcoding, because it feels alien to my understanding of the term, After a lot of thought I suspect by transcoding you mean additional instructions to facilitate emulating other architectures (for example x64) vit a JIT or AOT compiler, and yes there is working group J that is looking into that, however that may not be the right approach. I’m just happy being able to broach the subject. Join the Ars Orbital Transmission mailing list to get weekly updates delivered to your inbox. Where the balance lies is a question between RISC-V, OS vendors and IHVs, and consumers and I think there is some scope for discussion. “World’s best CPU performance per watt”: Testing conducted by Apple in October 2020 using preproduction 13-inch MacBook Pro systems with Apple M1 chip and 16GB of RAM. To put that in perspective, last year’s Snapdragon 865 with the 5th gen AI Engine featured 15 … There is also the open source Hummingbird processors that are aiming at the Cortex-M space. Jim Salter While we've seen a screenshot of an 8,200 CoreMark score, and we've seen a 69mW power reading, it's not entirely clear that the power reading was representative of the entire benchmark run. The AMD Embedded Ryzen V2000 family features up to eight 'Zen 2' CPU cores and seven GPU compute units, built on a 7nm process. People often take such things for granted, but if too few people take an active role to ensure open platforms remain viable, they can become marginalized and become niche/”second class citizens” in the real world. We would do the same if we were in their shoes. Literally, it measures the rate of computation that can be delivered by a computer for every watt of power consumed. Marketing especially unethical marketing by its nature is not about communication and persuasion on the merits but about subverting your judgement. I am not saying anything about politics, but their policy of favoring home grown processors internally is creating great incentive to be competative. If you've got access to a Linux system, it's pretty easy to download, compile, and run CoreMark yourself. Implementations are potentially going to vary within a single semiconductor company, and this is what we want. This can be annoying when you try to have an objective conversation, but that is human nature I suppose, haha. GCC and LLVM collaborated on what they wanted from a compiler implementation level, but anyone is fine to define their own (as with any other CPU). RISC-V doesn’t concern itself with operating system interoperability but to dictate that would be to limit implentors. Benchmark results and pricing is reviewed daily. Micro Magic intends to offer its new RISC-V design to customers using an IP licensing model. RISC-V endorsed the Wishbone bus for systems on a chip but vendors aren’t required to use it. But when we factor in power efficiency, things get crazy. Because RISC-V doesn’t dictate the implementation, extra instructions for emulation aren’t guaranteed to matter. If it’s something people can run with at some point I’m sure they will pipe up. This is extremely crude, and I caution readers not to rely too much on comparing the M1's efficiency to the Swift 3's on these numbers alone—but it's good enough to get some perspective on Micro Magic's claim for its new RISC-V (pronounced "risk five") CPU. Once you get to the FAB you are so caught up in proprietary processes you simply can’t be as open as you want (If I am reading you correctly), and if there were more restrictions placed on it then you wouldn’t see as many private companies adopting RISC-V so quickly (for example Western Digital). Sign up or login to join the discussions! A chip on its shoulders — Apple dishes details on its new M1 chip Apple claims 8-core SoC offers world’s best performance per watt. At this point I’d be happy if someone with influence produce a discussion document covering things like acces to instruction sets, interoperability with things like transcoding, the OS and VM layers, support for end users investments in software, the use of escrow and barriers such as copy protection and copyright. Included in these lists are CPUs designed for servers and workstations (such as Intel Xeon and AMD EPYC/Opteron processors), desktop CPUs … Your California Privacy Rights | Do Not Sell My Personal Information It is indeed good advice to study the data and the rules behind what generated the data. Micro Magic has provided figures—and in one case, a screenshot—for performance at 3GHz, 4.25GHz, and 5GHz. © 2020 Condé Nast. I don’t know enough about the engineering to know what is covered by patent versus trade secret to know how much or little they can open up and this is before international security and trade wars are considered. Micro Magic's new CPU prototype is seen right here working on an Odroid board. But there isn’t a specific standard so that peripherals all work the same, or have the same memory addresses, etc for a microcontroller. In addition vendors are allowed to create their own modules to push functionality down to the processor level (for example this is what WD is doing). This is enough to let us know that the Micro Magic chip in its current form isn't a world-class competitor for traditional ARM and x86 CPUs in phone or laptop applications—but it's much closer to them than previous RISC-V implementations have been. Use of and/or registration on any portion of this site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement (updated 1/1/20) and Privacy Policy and Cookie Statement (updated 1/1/20) and Ars Technica Addendum (effective 8/21/2018). This is true. Then we had the Fahrenheit scandal where Microsoft punked SGI and then went on to use their monopoly to force Direct3D on the world as well as use their position to push into console gaming and the cloud (while not releasing OS which gave basic users and businesses the capability to host their own local cloud). Read our affiliate link policy. But when we look at M1, we see a massive 3x improvement in performance per watt. Things get considerably more complicated once you start talking about entire consumer-friendly systems, of course. o Power management – autonomous dynamic voltage frequency scaling in coherent fabric, The main problem at the abstract level is core versus extended functionality. Fair comment. Then again, last time I said anything about an upcoming processor, I was off by a million miles, so what do I know? If we use the EMBC's published single-core score for the Snapdragon 820 along with Anandtech's single-core CPU power test result, we get about 16,000 CoreMarks per watt. Now that we understood all that, the next step in order to better evaluate Micro Magic's claims was to run a few CoreMark benchmarks of our own. That is is. As for implemenations not necessarily open this is why I kind of obsess the issue including transcoding and architectual solutions or interfacing for modular systems which allow for genuine mix and match solutions. — AMD Ryzen Embedded V2000 Series processors deliver double the cores 1, up to 2x the performance-per-watt 2 and an estimated 15 percent IPC uplift 3 over the previous generation —. Article. Reading through wiki I note RISC-V have incorporated themselves in Switzerland to avoid the issue of unilateral sanctions. But isn’t it OK for those to be a subset of the whole, so consumers can choose, and still know that code will run on those processors transparently as proprietary implementations? Micro Magic Inc.—a small electronic design firm in Sunnyvale, California—has produced a prototype CPU that is several times more efficient than world-leading competitors, while retaining reasonable raw performance. As for whether it is good for all things all the time we don’t really know so comparing them to currents major CPUs isn’t an exact comparison. When we look back at the single‑threaded performance of low‑power silicon in the Mac, gains in performance per watt have been very small from one chip to the next. You’ve explained some of the detailed issues which helps but there’s two issues here. Ultimately, while I have good vibes from RISC-V, I still fear that its openness could be subverted by corporate influences like has happened with most of our ARM devices. The nitty gritty of transcoding and subsystems (and VMs) cooperating with each other to anyone can run anything they like without vendor lock-in and forced obsolescence is a technical thing. But let me try and summarize as best as I can for you: It’s a modular instruction set architecture that can describe everything from an 8 bit to a 128 bit computer, but the well defined ISAs are for 16, 32, an 64 bit systems. Getting the raw performance scores was considerably easier than getting truly comparable power readings. Micro Magic was originally founded in 1995 and was purchased by Juniper Networks for $260 million. In judging AMD vs Intel CPU performance per watt, It's impossible to overstate the importance of having the densest process node paired with … Ars Technica summarises and looks at the various claims made by Micro Magic about their RISC-V core. In 2004, it was reborn under its original name by the original founders—Mark Santoro and Lee Tavrow, who originally worked at Sun and led the team that developed the 300MHz SPARC microprocessor. Performance per watt on Micro Magic's new CPU is eye-popping as compared to typical systems. In other words, Micro Magic's prototype CPU is both significantly faster and tremendously more power-efficient than a reasonably modern and still very capable smartphone CPU. Performance per watt refers to the ratio of peak CPU performance to average power consumed using select industry standard benchmarks. If your questions are indeed about governance, you have done a bad job of explaining what you mean. For some or all of this to work via a fastpath or slowpath (could be hardware or software) the overall concepts and systems and regulations which enable this need to be worked out and specified. New RISC-V CPU claims recordbreaking performance per watt, https://www.nextplatform.com/2020/08/21/alibaba-on-the-bleeding-edge-of-risc-v-with-xt910/, https://nequalsonelifestyle.com/2020/12/06/mm-riscv-vs-rock64-arm/, ARM Takes Aim at Intel, Sends Cortex A9 to GlobalFoundries, Google, Nvidia Bringing Android to Tegra Chips, Private Computer Museum Offers Glimpse Into the Past, Windows XP and Red Hat Linux Hardware Boxes, [Updated with response from Apple] Macs are a privacy nightmare, Working from home at 25MHz: You could do worse than a Quadra 700. So so long as the bitness, and subsets match, binary executables will carry over and run the same, and this is what you (or at least I) would want. New RISC-V CPU Claims Recordbreaking Performance Per Watt 1 min read December 4, 2020 Hmmmmmm shares a report from Ars Technica: Micro Magic Inc. — a small electronic design firm in Sunnyvale, California — has produced a prototype CPU that is several times more efficient than world-leading competitors, while retaining reasonable raw performance . Huang 5.19GHz/1.1V.Later Ryzen 4700u SiFive Mark Santoro Lee Tavrow We're Ars “World’s best CPU performance per watt”: Testing conducted by Apple in October 2020 using preproduction 13-inch MacBook Pro systems with Apple M1 chip and 16GB of RAM. Everyone has their opinions and musings. When I say modular I mean that if you don’t want floating point, you can leave out that module, etc. Small world. Based on the idea that Ampere Computing has to offer at least a 20 percent price/performance advantage at the chip level compared to the best that Intel and AMD can throw at the cost per performance per watt equation that dominates the buying decisions of the hyperscalers and cloud builders that Ampere Computing is targeting. I still have an Apple M1 Mac Mini on hand, as well as a Ryzen 7 4700U-powered Acer Swift 3, so those were my test systems for comparison. At the power-efficient 3GHz clockrate, the Micro Magic CPU is nearly three times faster than, for example, SiFive's Freedom U540 CPU running single-threaded. The Snapdragon 820 isn't world-class anymore, but it's no slouch, either—it was the processor in the US version of Samsung's Galaxy S7. In computing, performance per watt is a measure of the energy efficiency of a particular computer architecture or computer hardware. For the M1, apple chose to implement x86 memory model in hardware rather than in software to avoid certain implied inefficiencies of software overhead. I’ve been involved on a bit of this stuff for the printed SolarPV, in that sector the target is $1/m² but the cost of what you can do in that square meter doesn’t rise proportionally with the density of devices on the film. I hear what you are saying, but I think you are looking for RISC-V to be more than it is, and that it wants to be. Qualcomm says the Snapdragon 888 boasts three times more performance per watt over the previous generation, as well as 26 tera operations per second (TOPS). 17. CoreMark focuses solely on the core pipeline functions of a CPU, including basic read/write, integer, and control operations. WIRED Media Group I’m bothered about the general purpose baseline versus the use case specific implementation issues. I have some major reservations about all of these claims, mostly because of the lack of benchmarks that more accurately track real-world usage. Micro Magic's RISC-V CPU delivers about 1/4 of the raw performance of a single Apple M1 Firestorm core at its hyper-efficient 3GHz clockrate. Extraordinary claims requite extraordinary evidence, and I feel like some vague photos just doesn’t to the trick of convincing me. New RISC-V CPU claims recordbreaking performance per watt Thom Holwerda 2020-12-04 Hardware 26 Comments Ars Technica summarises and looks at the various claims made by Micro Magic about their RISC-V core. Ars Technica - Jim Salter ... 10 Calming Gifts for People With 2020 Anxiety Mashable. I lament that this did not happen with ARM and for better or worse this leaves x86 (with all of it’s problems) as the friendliest FOSS platform to date. Even at its efficiency-first 3GHz clockrate, the Micro Magic CPU outperformed a Qualcomm Snapdragon 820. At 5GHz, it outruns all four of the SiFive's cores. And you can find that at the RISC-V website, I won’t google that for you. For people with use case and power envelopes which match the capabilities either would be useful if Arstechnica tests are accurate. There would be other none technical considerations of course but I would expect anyone publishing this to consult and fold in the relevant sections. All of this sounds very exciting—Micro Magic's new prototype is delivering solid smartphone-grade performance at a fraction of the power budget, using an instruction set that Linux already runs natively on. With modern backend cloud implementations being available in the PS5 for some cases the fastpath will be over an external network.).

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